Dr. Horrible, Part III
Note: If you haven’t seen Part III, be warned, this is gonna be slightly spoilerish. That said, you’re an autonomous human being, you decide whether you want to keep reading or not.
I’ve said a bit about this out and around, but passions are high and most people are either angrily blasting it or angrily defending it. I’m not in the mood for being angry. I find it so interesting from a storytelling point of view. I mean, givent that Dr. Horrible made a choice to kill, there was little wiggle room to avoid the tragic ending. And I respect the story. It was tightly told, beautifully done, the front end was mostly funny, the dark edged itself in, and then the end was pitch black. I really did love it and respect it and I think it was fabulous storytelling.
But I’m a romantic comedy writer for a reason. I love happy endings, feel-good stories. So while I respected Dr. Horrible and admired how well done it was and loved the writing… I don’t feel good after having seen it, and that… I don’t like. However, I’ve read a lot of stories that made me feel great after reading them, but I didn’t respect the storytelling. So I’m wondering if it’s better to enjoy how the product makes you feel, or to respect the storytelling. Ideally, you’d have both but… just thinking aloud. I don’t have an answer. I welcome your thoughts.
Just think back to the groupies saying they do the weird stuff. Then you’ll smile. Or rewind it five times to see Captain Hammer’s reaction. Priceless.
But imho, Dr. Horrible reaped what he sewed. And it left him empty. Joss got his point across, I think. The problem is I think that point is individual for everyone. You can read something political into it if you’re into that, you can read the whole evil will never really win lesson, even if it seems to come out on top, etc. Whatever. I could see different endings for it, but somehow I think in the end I like the way he did it.
Still, it makes me need to rewind again and smile at the groupies. And their receipt.
Dr. Horrible always made the wrong choice. From the beginning. When he chose to steal the Flutonium rather than talk to Penny, he set his course in action. He sealed the deal in act III.
I was really rooting for him to get the girl. I was bereft last night. (I watched all three at once.) I am a firm believer in second chances, so I had a hard time with the ending, but I think it’s completely fair, and right. And sad.
And, in the large scope, he was choosing wrong over right, and always said so, so in the end, he deserved what he got. (Wow, how mom-like is that?!? I don’t really think I’m accurately expressing how much I _liked_ him and wanted him to have an HEA. But this really made me think.)
As always, I’m of two minds. Like you, I love the HEA – that’s what fiction’s for, dangit, if I want depressing and unresolved I’ll read the newspaper – and I did feel a bit sucker-punched the first time I saw Act III. However, from a narrative standpoint, this ending was the best way to serve The Story, and that’s what a writer has to do. This wasn’t a romantic comedy, as it turns out – it was an origin tale, and as such, it could really only go one way.
Also, to be honest, I love The Guild and I totally pink puffy heart Felicia Day, so I think if it’d been another actress I would have been less upset.
In the end, for me, The Story wins. I did feel bereft for most of Sunday, but then my admiration for the whole technical, musical, narrative, low-budget, new-media achievement prevailed and I watched it a few more times. I think it’s all kinds of amazing.
This might get long, so excuse me.
You know I’m one of those readers that hold to genre expectations until they drive me crazy. When I decided to watch Dr. Horrible I didn’t have any expectations to what the ending would be like. Yeah, the romance writer in me wanted a happy ending. I want happy endings in everything I watch, but I don’t hold not having the HEA against the story if that’s not what was promised.
The moment Penny came out of that garbage with stars in her eyes over Captain Hammer I wanted Billy to have someone better. No matter how many duets Billy and Penny did I didn’t see them together. Penny happily got Hammered. (not that I hold that against her I just wanted to say that, because it makes me giggle.)
Anyway, now to really get to your question. I’d rather have an ending that feels right. Yeah, that warm feeling a happy ending gives me can’t be measured. But not every “happy” ending gives me that warm feeling. Some “happy” endings I’m thinking yeah, right.
Dr. Horrible ending wasn’t happy at all, but it ended right. I felt Joss built up to this ending. (I watched it a second time and he was practically beating the viewer over the head THIS IS NOT GOING TO END WELL.)
I wish more books were both this well written and had endings that were perfect for the book. I’ve read too many books that botch it at the end. People really should teach endings.
Now the best examples of a right ending that also left me warm: Gods in Alabama. Not to gush or anything: Little Ray of Sunshine.
I agree with Melissa Blue. Yes,I wanted there to be a happy ending, but I really didn’t expect it and probably couldn’t have bought it anyway. I think if this had been the first Joss project I’d seen, it might have come as more of a surprise – although I have not found all of his endings to be depressing. I guess he’s just more willing than most people to end on a down note if that’s what the story calls for. Although, given a choice, I’d prefer to be warm and fuzzy at the end. Y’know, in general.
Oh – and on the subject of warm fuzzies – my family saw Mamma Mia last night and loved it. Colin Firth gets shirtless and doused in water, too (which is one of the warmest fuzzies I can think of, and most of why I mention it here for you, Lani!)
I apreciate the storytelling and the ending wasn’t such a surprise for me. I mean, come on, anyone who’s watched much of Whedon’s work knows this is exactly what he does. He knew going in fans would love Penny, that right there, doomed her. Think about it.
I love the HEA and that is exactly why I write romances, but I can and do enjoy the darker stories. But I’m twisted like that.
Colin Firth shirtless. Um… I’m going!
Melissa – you pretty much hit on the head everything I thought about it. I think it was a fitting ending, it was an ending I respected and it worked. Still, I feel sad and I don’t want to feel sad because so much of it made me happy.
Cate, you’ve got a great point about rewinding (“We do the weird stuff!”) but somehow, the incredible enjoyment I get from the earlier stuff is dulled a bit by the shock that the ending was.
Renee – you’re smart. I’m huge into Joss Whedon everything, and yet… didn’t see it coming.I think part of it was all the press he did, which said, “It’s just goofy.” I was expecting goofy all the way through, and I got sucker punched. I’m rarely surprised by stories, so it was great on that front. And I’m slowly recovering enough to watch it again. I’ve had all the songs in my head constantly since it started, and I can’t kick them. I really want the soundtrack.
Alala, I think you’re right. Story wins. In the end, a story that left me feeling good but wasn’t satisfying or particularly well-told is kind of an empty experience. Although really – I like well-told AND happily ended. That’s the absolute best of both worlds.
JulieB – You know, that’s exactly what I told my older daughter when we discussed it. She handled it pretty well and seemed to understand. My younger daughter was devastated; she wept for fifteen minutes. It was my own stupid fault; I shouldn’t have let her watch a Joss show I didn’t know the end to. That was my fault. She seems to be over it now, though. But god – I felt like a big idiot.
“My younger daughter was devastated; she wept for fifteen minutes.”
Oh, poor Light. It makes me want to go to the candy store and send the poor kid some. And Sweetness, for taking it so well. And myself, on general principle and because candy is good.
I can’t say that I have ever knowingly watched anything Whedon. Never really got into the whole Buffy thing–just didn’t get why they made an entire series about some blonde chick who had a thing about killing vampires, but I digress.
I had absolutely no expectations when I went into this. None. It was such an odd sort of video experience that I think I was open to just about anything he came up with. It reminded me somewhat of Rocky Horror so again, I was expecting bizarre!
I loved Dr. Horrible, despised Captain Hammer, and thought Penny was a doormat that could sing really well. She had no thoughts of her own but wanted to “do good” for others.
I thought it ended right. It made sense. It wasn’t a HEA but why would it be? When did anything Dr. Horrible did turn out for the best?
I thought the flash of him at the end was maybe a sign that he thought about what would happen and fantasized about it and realized he couldn’t go through with it, that he really wasn’t cut out ot be a super villian after all. But then someone over at Cherry Forums said that the flash was of how he felt now that he had achieved his goal–alone and sad. That being a super villian got him all the stuff he wanted but what did it matter to him now? Penney was dead and he only had himself to blame for it, because he did inadvertantly kill her with his bumbling attempt to build a Death Ray.
What if Whedon meant to conflict the viewer? What if that is how he wants us to see the end? Either as a fantasy gone wrong with the realization that he can never be truly Horrible, that he is always just going to be Billy, or as the empty super villian Dr. Horrible who, after he commits crimes and parties with thugs and schemes evil things with the ELE, has to go back home and see himself as he truly is–alone and empty and still a nobody. Billy was screwed no matter which way he decided to go! He was, and will always be, a loser… Idk.
Whatever his thought process, Whedon certainly has people talking, and that is always a good thing!
Whatever his thought process, Whedon certainly has people talking, and that is always a good thing!
That’s why I think he’s a genius. So much of what’s published and what’s being shown on t.v. feels like the same ol’ thing. You’ve seen it a million times. But then something comes along that makes you sit up and pay attention. You want to talk about it be it good or bad. That to me is a symptom of good writing.
Oh. I was having some alone time with the husband, and we watched all three the first night. We enjoyed the story so much, that at the end of Act 1, my husband looked over at me and said “You know, I really don’t see anything that would stop us from letting (First Daughter) watch this. Or even the other two kids.” But, since everyone was quiet we clicked to Act 2.
When we got to the hammer reference we thought “Hmmm. Maybe we’d better check out Act 3.”
This gives me time to figure out the where and when. The caboose is NOT ready for that.
Hmm. Lost a complete thought there that would make that last post make more sense.
Anyway, I’m glad I got through the acts all in one night, because I probably would have called the kids in based on the first act the second night.
Sheri wrote:
Good point. I think the vitriol out there about the ending has a lot to do with expectations. Whedon himself in all the interviews I read always played how incredibly goofy and silly it was; he set a lot of us up to expect goofy and silly. Even when the darkness started showing in the second act, I didn’t see it coming. Which I should have. So at first, I was horribly upset, but really… it was still well told. I can’t see the argument that it wasn’t well-told. I can see the argument that it was upsetting, but I think it was a fabulous piece of storytelling, even if I didn’t want the ending. I did like it, though. It’s weird. I still like it. I think it’s fabulous.
Melissa Blue said:
Absolutely. I think anything Whedon does (well, anything except Serenity) can provide great instruction for writers. He ratchets everything to the nth degree, really tightens the conflict until it’s about to burst at the seams, and then with all that energy built into the story, he lets it fly into the climax. I keep thinking about how to build that kind of tightness into my storytelling, but without all the killing of lovely characters. It’s fun to play around with.
JulieB wrote:
You know, I don’t shelter the kids from much, but I would have from this. Sex and violence and bad language I can explain and talk to them about. But a Whedon heartbreak? Poor Light was just so devastated, it was worse for me than when I watched it for the first time myself. But then, much as you want to protect your kids from hurting, it’s part of life. At least I was there when they watched it. There’s that. Still – ugh. That stung.
I have to say I only picked this [Dr. Horrible] up from Argh Ink a few days before it released and hadn’t heard word one of buzz. And I think that was for the best.
It’s a Whedon project so I knew someone was going out feet first. Let’s be serious – I didn’t commit to Buffy that first season until Joss sent hyenia teenagers after the prinicpal. I will blindly follow the man forever for that alone.
Over the years I’ve come to watch Whedon with a sick mix of anticipation and trepidation – who will I attach to and are they ultimately the sacrifical lamb? Nothing, NOTHING has come close to breaking me like the end of Serenity. NOTHING.
As far as the hype about this being a “silly” or “goofy” project – it was. Seriously. Go back and watch it again. VERY silly and goofy. But that doesn’t mean it had to lack all the good bits that make us love Joss.
As for the original question, I, too, prefer HEA. But on the other side, there’s only so much I can take and I find myself reading (or rereading) novels about serial killers or watching Law and Order.
But when it comes to a Joss project I know I’m going to get laughs and heartbreak and for me that is absolutely perfect.
Nathan Fillion talking about his penis doesn’t hurt either.
Oops! Forgot to mention the whole Cretaion of Supervillain 101: it had to be Penny who was sacraficed for Dr. Horrible to complete his quest. Otherwise it would mean nothing and we would be left with a flat character doing evil because he can. The loss of Penny is that final twist of the knife that will elevate Dr. Horrible to the head of the ELE.
Textbook comic stuff. Textbook dramatics, really.
I didn’t like Penny, because she’s a waffler, a speed bump on Billy’s route to membership in the ELE. He’s always going to be the friend that women want to talk to, not the one that they want to jump his bones. Or his hammer, as the case may be.(OOh…”Hammer”. I’m thinking it could replace “Manhood”) He achieved his goal of membership, and can move on to the brass ring of World Domination in order to straighten things out, because the world is a mess. And somebody has to.
I thought it was funny, and interesting because I had no expectations as to where it was going. Thank you to the Joss fans like you & J who pointed me in that direction. I’ve never watched Buffy or Serenity (But I did give Adam Baldwin a ride one night)
So did I, like, um, break the blog comment thingy or is the silence because no one has anything else to say?
I r e a l l y need to find a hobby…
(sometimes at night I hear the lambs screaming…)
lol! Slave Driver, I personally would love to hear the tale of Adam Baldwin.
-
It’s funny to hear that people out there have no prior experience with Whedon. We fans tend to get blind spots and go “hrk??” when someone doesn’t profess to love our stalkees the way we do.
It’s like mentioning Oingo Boingo to someone from the East Coast. They’re all “Dead Man’s who?” It’s disturbing.
I’m dead?/?? What do you mean I’m dead? A mother in one book and a dead body in a script. I need to rethink my character.
I haven’t seen Dr. Horrible so I can’t comment on that but I do love both a good story and HEA. I guess I would have to put the good story ahead though. Good story, good writing they are what makes or breaks a book or movie. I saw a movie awhile ago that I had thought would be really terrific but it was badly written IMO and now I can’t even remember the name of it. It had great scenery though. I remember it being a big disappointment to me so I guess that proves that I prefer good writing and good storyline.